Why do Israel and Palestine keep fighting?

/newbbs/dispbbs.asp?BoardID=1&ID=2622375

/newbbs/dispbbs.asp?BoardID=1&ID=2620546

/newbbs/dispbbs. asp?BoardID=1&ID=2620254

/knowbldu/blog/item/c47a64fd7a293042d6887d82.html

[Original] Liu Xingyu: Let’s talk about Palestinian land and refugee issues again

< p>Article submitted by: Meteor Rain 72 Posted on Maoyankanrenkaidi.net

Liu Xingyu: Let’s talk about Palestinian land and refugee issues again (Part 1)

Original author: Liu Xingyu 72 (I just found this article while searching on the Internet. The main content of this article is my immediate work when participating in online discussions, which was compiled by others and posted on the Canaan Forum)

Lin Siyun in Ba Fallacies on land issues

———— Let’s talk about the rationality of the division of Palestinian-Israeli land

Mr. Lin Siyun has a masterpiece on the Middle East issue, and I have published an article on it After discussing with him, he answered almost every question, but in the end he avoided talking about the territorial and population issues, so I assumed that he had acquiesced to my doubts. I will put forward my own views on this issue below:

Mr. Lin Siyun is somewhat biased towards Japan and anti-American (of course not as anti-Japanese and anti-American as Zuozuo and Angry Youth). He said in this long article:

The Arabs living in Palestine account for 68% of the total population, and the land owned by Arabs accounts for 94% of the total area of ??Palestine. However, UN General Assembly Resolution 181 stipulates that 57% of the total area of ??Palestine will be allocated to Jews, who account for one-third of the population, and Arabs, who account for two-thirds of the population, will only receive 43% of the land. Why should nearly 60% of the land be given to Jews, who only account for one-third of the population? There is no explanation in the UN General Assembly resolution. But no matter from which angle you look at it, UN General Assembly Resolution 181 lacks fairness at all.

——-1. First of all, the facts of Resolution 181 are: November 29, 1947, the second session of the General Assembly The United Nations General Assembly voted to adopt the resolution on the partition of Palestine, namely United Nations Resolution 181, with 33 votes in favor and 13 against (10 of which were Islamic countries) and 10 abstentions. The resolution stipulated that Britain would end its mandate in Palestine and withdraw its troops before August 1, 1948; two months later, two states, the Arab state and the Jewish state, would be established on Palestinian land. According to the blueprint of the partition resolution, the Arab state's territory reached 11,203 square kilometers, accounting for approximately 43% of the total area of ??Palestine at that time. The population was 725,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews; the Jewish state's territory was 14,942 square kilometers, accounting for approximately Palestine accounts for 57% of the total area, with a population of 497,000 Arabs and 598,000 Jews.

——-2, as you can see from the above: the Jewish State accounts for 57% of the territory and 59.8% of the population (1.095 million), and the Palestinian State accounts for 43% of the territory and 40% of the population. .1%. There is no argument that Jews occupy a large amount of land, because the land of the Jewish state is owned by Jews and Palestinians, just like the 1.2 million Palestinians living in Israel and the current Jewish people both own the land of Israel. Regarding the issue of land division, it was also considered at that time that there were still millions of wandering Jews in the world who needed resettlement.

——3. Lin Siyun said that the land owned by Arabs accounts for 94% of the total area of ??Palestine, which is a big fallacy. We know that there are two main parts of land in a country.

One is state-owned (or royal-owned), and the other is privately owned (in China, it is state-owned and collectively owned). State ownership is generally overwhelming. The same is true in Palestine. The land owned by the British Mandate accounts for most of Palestine, so it is absolutely impossible for Arabs to occupy 94% of the land in Palestine. The fact is: Most of the Arabs who own land in Palestine are not local Palestinian Arabs, but wealthy Arabs living in Damascus and Cairo. The Arabs in Palestine (later called Palestinians) owned very little land. At that time, the amount of land owned by the Jews (mostly purchased from Arabs in Syria, Jordan, Egypt and other places) was 2-3 times the land owned by the local Arabs (later Palestinians) (I can’t remember the specifics), which was good. Understand that Jews bring capital, technology and management experience from Europe, and most of them are bosses, while the local Arabs are poorer, work more, and own less land. Many Arabs who come to work from surrounding Arab countries mainly rely on Jews for their livelihood. , which is why there are as many as 490,000 Arabs in the designated Jewish state, because they make a living by farming for the Jews.

At that time, Arabs were traditionally concentrated in more developed places, while in the original more remote places, a large number of Arabs immigrated after the Jews came and were reclaimed (because the land in remote places was cheap and more land could be purchased). This is the real reason why the land allocated to the Jewish state accounts for 57% and there are 470,000 Arabs.

—-4. What Lin Siyun said is that the land of Palestine is fragmented and barren is even more ridiculous. If you look at the 1948 map, you will know that neither the Jewish State nor the Palestinian State is continuous and complete, but is roughly divided into two large blocks, like a cross. The fragmented land of Palestine was formed later, thanks to their Arab brothers. Besides, is it barren? In fact, the water-rich areas in the north are owned by the Palestinian state, and the West Bank, known as the granary, is owned by the Palestinian state, which also owns the coastline and ports. On the contrary, the Jewish State (Israel) has much less water than the Palestinian State, so later Israel's seawater desalination technology was very high (it was forced out). The Gobi Desert in the south was allocated to the Jewish State (Israel), so Israel's desert It is very famous in the agricultural world (it was also forced out), and it also provides China with a lot of technical support. You have never heard that Palestine is short of water or has a large desert, the Gobi Desert. The West Bank can be said to be the most fertile area there, and it is also the area with the most developed industry and commerce traditionally. All returned to the Palestinian state. On the contrary, many people in Israel now Bustling towns with expensive land turned out to be desolate areas. Therefore, Lin Siyun's statement is untenable.

2 Let’s talk about the Palestinian land and refugee issues again

—–5. The Palestinian refugee issue is also an issue that is often misunderstood by Chinese readers. Chinese readers generally believe that it is Israel that created Palestinian refugees. They even believe that it was Israeli Jews who drove away Palestinians in order to occupy Palestinian land and property and created Palestinian refugees. But there is a very strange phenomenon. When you log in to the official website of the Palestinian Autonomous Government, a prominent position on the home page of the Palestinian refugee issue states: The origin of Palestinian refugees mainly stems from the wrong policies of Arab countries. First of all, there are Palestinians who have been driven out by Jewish extremist organizations, but they are a minority. Some took the initiative to avoid the war and fled.

Most Palestinians were deceived into leaving by their Arab brothers. The Arab coalition forces that invaded Israel told the Palestinians to stay away temporarily, ranging from 3-5 days to half a month. All the land and property will be yours. As a result, these Palestinians could never go back, because part of the place mentioned above was occupied by Israel, and part was divided among their Arab brothers. So these Palestinians became refugees and stayed there for more than half a century. It is generally estimated that the number of refugees is between 500,000 and 800,000, and they and their descendants have depended entirely on the international community for food and shelter (the current population is about 3 million). However, during the Middle East war, there were roughly the same number of Jewish refugees (about 700,000), and all their land and property were confiscated by the Arab regime. However, Israel and other countries accepted them without asking for a penny from the United Nations. Now they and their Future generations are active on all fronts and make their own contributions to themselves and humanity.

Mr. Lin is a very good online writer, and this article is also very valuable. I once discussed it with him, and he basically answered my other questions, but this question, no matter how many times I asked it, He always avoided answering, so I took it as acknowledgment that he was wrong.

The issue of land and population in Resolution 181 is often debated in Chinese forums. This is because our media has avoided this issue for a long time. It is necessary to clarify it now.

========================================

Reader wenchaocui's comments after reading:

Thanks to the "choice" netizen for providing such detailed information, which gave me a comprehensive and historical understanding of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict for the first time.

Thanks also to the netizen "Meteor Shower 72" for the additional information.

In general, I feel that it is difficult to figure out who is right and who is wrong in the grievances between Palestine and Israel. Looking at modern times, after World War I, Britain defeated the Ottomans and obtained some colonies, including Palestine. Due to various interest considerations, it soon supported Zionism, and the United States has always supported it. The independence movement of British and French colonies in the Middle East was completed during and (mainly) after World War II. By this time, there were already 500,000 Jews living in Palestine. When a colony becomes independent, does the mother country have the right to demarcate national borders? At least there is the right to coordinate the demarcation of national borders by all parties. This has been proven in the Middle East, India and Pakistan. In addition, there is also UN Resolution 181. Although it is not necessarily reasonable, the process of establishing the state of Israel is basically in compliance with international law. Legal but unreasonable, it finally led to decades of conflict. Moreover, the conflict has been exploited by Western powers, the Soviet Union, and those in power in some Arab countries, making it more complicated. In recent years, the Arab-Israeli conflict has basically subsided, and the Palestinian Authority has also accepted UN Resolution 181. There is hope for a peaceful resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Hope that lasting peace will be achieved soon.

Meteor Shower 72 Supplement: Palestinian Arabs lost their land because they did not go on the scale

When Chinese readers talk about Palestinian land, there are several concepts that need to be clarified:

< p>1. Of course, the land in Palestine belongs to the current Palestinians. This is taken for granted, just like the Indian Ocean does not belong to India. In fact, there were no Palestinians before 1948, but only Arabs, Jews, Bedouins, etc. living on that land. There was no Palestinian state in history. The so-called Palestinians were only widely recognized after the establishment of the state of Israel. concept.

2,

3. The traditional Palestinian area is much larger than the current State of Israel and the Palestinian Autonomous Region. It includes large areas of Transjordan, those lands in the 20-30 The era has long been divided among the surrounding Arab countries. Therefore, some extremist Jews claim that the current Palestinian refugees should live there, because the State of Israel actually only received about 28% of the total land in Palestine according to the resolution (the specific memory is unclear), and there are also a very small number of Palestinian extremists who believe that they should establish is a greater Palestinian state, including not only Israel but also the divided parts.

lyx760’s comments after reading:

Mr. Choice: The reason why I accept Meteor Shower’s statement that Jewish privately owned land is more than Arab privately owned land is that I have been in several The local government saw that since the Bedouins and Arabs in Palestine were still in the nomadic stage at that time and had no concept of land ownership, they could just drive their livestock to the grass. The Jews are an agricultural people and have a strong sense of private property. They bought land from the local tribal chiefs as soon as they arrived. The locals also laughed at the Jews for being stupid. They only had livestock to drive up. They gave them free money and they continued to go up. Drive livestock. After the Jews bought the land, they surrounded it with fences, which were small at first, so as not to affect the livestock's walking and grazing. The relationship between the two ethnic groups is still very good. But later, more and more land was fenced off, and livestock often huddled together beside the fences. So the Arabs got angry and demolished the fences, which triggered violent conflicts between the two communities. This is a clash of cultures, not one race is the thug.

3 Let’s talk about the Palestinian land and refugee issues

I think this statement is consistent with common sense and reasonable, and I generally tend to agree with it. The meteor shower statement verifies this statement. Arabs do not buy land, and of course privately owned land is less than that of Jews. And these landless Arabs may work as Jewish workers, engage in commercial or service activities, and their service targets are Jewish farmers. Of course, they live in the Jewish Quarter. So when the Jewish state is established, of course they must be included in the Jewish state. Is it true? Want to drive them out of their homes? Judging from the proportion, Arabs are almost equal to Jews. Democratic elections may not necessarily lead to discrimination. Arabs cannot be said to be a minority, but the same number of equal ethnic groups. In other words, Israel, as a democratic country, is a country of two ethnic groups, not a country of a single ethnic group. As for today's result, it should be said that it is the consequences of refusing to accept democratic elections. After all, mankind can only develop in the direction of advanced civilization and cannot go backwards.

Imagine if the Palestinian areas were merged into one country, could you imagine leaving it to Hamas, Arafat, etc. to lead? What will be the consequences? And if it is managed like Israel, will it be acceptable to the whole world? You may say that Sharon is a bad person and cannot lead, but he can only be re-elected for one term, and now it seems that he may step down due to corruption. And the system is crucial. Even under such a system, bad people can only do good things and not bad things. At that time, Israeli President Begin could be said to be the originator of terrorists. It was his massacre of Arab civilians that triggered the refugee flow and caused today's problems. But after he became president, he won the Nobel Peace Prize.

I do not agree with many of Mr. Lin Siyun’s views, such as justifying Wang Jingwei’s traitorous behavior. But I think his articles are rigorous and reasonable, and the factual information is as true as possible. It is worth reading and rewarding. Therefore, the main information of the main post should be true and worthy of serious consideration. However, the main post also contains some factual errors, which may be due to his prejudice (everyone has normal prejudice, not the malicious kind), and it should be viewed rationally. For example, when he said that only China did not sign the Paris Peace Conference agreement, he represented the views of the United States, Britain and others, which is wrong. Two countries did not sign the Paris Convention, and the other one was the United States, which withdrew in protest (China did not). In the words of the then US president, the Paris Peace Conference was an imperialist "spoils-sharing" conference, and he was opposed to it. The land of the defeated Ottoman Empire was transferred to the leadership of the victorious country, and it was even more opposed to the transfer of the land of the victorious country (China) to other victorious countries. On the issue of Shandong rights and interests, China repeatedly requested the United States for support, and the United States did support it. Perhaps this was due to Mr. Lin's prejudice against the United States, so Lin Siyun later said that the United States stopped military aid to Arab countries during Israel's founding war. The Arab countries' arms supplies come from Britain and they already have them, while Israel has no arms suppliers and has no arms. Later, Israel obtained a batch of weapons from the Soviet Union, which enabled the war to continue. There should be more such mistakes.

Meteor Shower 72 Supplement:

Arabs have no concept of land ownership. Anyway, everyone just drives their livestock to the grass. The Jews are an agricultural people and have a strong sense of private property. They bought land from the local tribal chiefs as soon as they arrived. The locals also laughed at the Jews for being stupid. They only had livestock to drive up. They gave them free money and they continued to go up. Drive livestock.

----You are right. The statement that 94% of the land in Palestine belongs to the Palestinians is their own statement, because the Arabs think that my grandfather grazes sheep here, so this The land is mine. My father has built a house here for 50 years, so the foundation is ours. Little do they know that they are misappropriating other people's means of production and that their house is an "illegal construction" "It's okay if people don't care about it, but once they take it seriously, they will be kicked out.

——————When talking about the land of Palestine, you should understand the land registration system of the Ottoman Empire in the mid-19th century. To be fair, the land left by many Palestinian ancestors was muddle-headed for nearly 100 years. What was lost years ago was the rule of the Muslim Brothers. So the local Palestinian Arabs don't really own as much land as the Jews.

jeremiah’s comments after reading:

One-third and two-thirds of the issues were discussed at the Canaan Forum the summer before last. No matter how powerful Mr. Lin is, don’t dozens of representatives of United Nations members know nothing about the problems you can see at a glance?

Let’s talk about the second issue of Palestinian land and refugees:

*.*.*.* 2008-12-31 15:10:21

Whisper to a friend Information blog search and reply to all the mailboxes of all comments under this topic will earn points! Points are exchanged for gifts for a big upgrade, draw the second floor quickly

Article submitted by: Meteor Shower 72 Posted on Maoyankanrenkaidi.net

Let’s talk about Palestinian land and refugee issues part two :

Original author: Liu Xingyu 72 (I just found this article while searching on the Internet. The main content of this article is my immediate work when participating in online discussions, which was compiled by others and posted on the Canaan Forum. )

The issue of the return of Palestinian refugees

Recently, some people are clamoring about the issue of the return of "Palestinian refugees". Who are Palestinian refugees? According to statistics, 730,000 Arabs fled Palestine during the first Middle East War. They became the earliest "Palestinian refugees" in the world. Coupled with the 300,000-400,000 Arabs who fled during the third Middle East War, the total number is more than 1 million.

4 Let’s talk about Palestinian land and refugee issues

In fact, more than 1 million refugees are not a particularly high record in the long history of history. Statistics show that since the end of World War II in the 20th century alone, a total of 135 million refugees have been created, and they are victims of war conflicts. However, the Palestinian refugee issue is the only one that cannot be resolved the longer it is delayed, and the more people are returned, the more people are returned. Today, the number of Palestinian refugees that Arab countries cry out every day is as high as 3.7 million. The reason for such a terrifying increase is that according to the national charter adopted by the Palestinian Establishment Committee in 1968, Palestinians are: Arabs who settled in Palestine before 1967. , and after 1947, if his parents are Palestinian, then he must also be Palestinian. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, among the more than 700,000 refugees generated during the first Middle East War, only 40-45% were settlers with real property. The rest were "blind people" who went to work in Palestine. And nomadic tribes who have never known settlement! ! ! In addition, at least about half of the people did not even see a shadow of an Israeli soldier. Whether the other half were driven out by the Jews has to be considered separately.

For example, according to the "Generation of the Palestine Refugee Problem from 1947 to 1949", when the battle between Arabs and Jews for Haifa failed, although the Jewish commander Moshe Camelli did not want to expel the Arabs, When it was merely ordered to implement a curfew in the Arab area, the Arab representatives refused to sign the surrender document and demanded that the Arab residents leave Haifa. Although the Jewish mayor Levi claimed that the Arabs were welcome to stay, 70,000 Arabs still left Haifa. Escape from the law. So we came to this strange conclusion. A young man, whose hometown is in Iraq, went to work in Gaza in 1947, and the war broke out. Then he heard that Jews would kill Arabs whenever they met (later it was proved that this was not the case), so Fleeed to Egypt. After that, he became a refugee. According to Egyptian regulations, refugees have strict restrictions on their scope of activities and are not allowed to leave the country at will. So he stayed in Egypt, married a local Egyptian woman, and gave birth to five children. There are five more sons. According to the Arab countries, these people are all "Palestinian refugees" who have no home to return to because the Jews occupied their homes. They all have the right to return to Palestine to settle, and they also have the right to ask Israel for the real estate they abandoned back then. compensation! !

There is no weirder thing in the world than this.

After looking at the generation process of the refugee problem, and then looking at the solution to the refugee problem, generally speaking, there are only two ways: 1. When the host country and the refugee have the same beliefs, culture, social structure, etc., the refugee Generally, they will be absorbed into their people, and then they will naturally no longer become refugees; 2. When the host country cannot absorb the refugees due to various reasons (political scruples, racial differences, beliefs), the refugees will stay for a long time. down, becoming an increasingly thorny problem. We have never seen a case in the world where refugees were able to return to their original place of residence after decades of mass expulsion. For example, after World War II, there was a large-scale wave of expulsions of Germanic people from Lithuania, Estonia and other places, and thousands of refugees poured into Germany, which was in ruins. But to this day, we have not heard of any "Germanic refugee problem"; Another example is that after the partition of India and Pakistan, millions of Muslims and Hindus each became refugees, but to this day we have never heard of the "Indian refugee problem" or the "Pakistani refugee problem."

In fact, the first Middle East War did not just produce Arab refugees. According to statistics, there were at least 800,000 Jews (from "Middle East Wars" and "Encyclopedia Britannica" of the Commercial Translation Library). They were expelled from places where they had lived for many years—Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. In the past, there were Jewish shops everywhere on the streets and there was one Jew for every five residents of Baghdad. Today, there is no sign of Jewish life or existence at all!

Professor Zhang Ping wrote in his article "Photographs of Iraqi Jews and the Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Refugee Problem":

It turned out that when 120,000 Jews fled Iraq, not only All property was confiscated, and personal belongings were also prohibited from being carried. All the family photo albums of the Talia family were forcibly detained. The living memories of several generations of the entire family were thus lost in the country where Mesopotamia Civilization originated. I had only known that all the property of Iraqi Jews had been confiscated by the Iraqi government, but I never imagined that even the photos would not be spared.

There are striking similarities between the situations of Jewish and Palestinian refugees since 1948. The numbers on both sides are roughly equal, ranging from 600,000 to 800,000. Both sides fled their ancestral homes for thousands of years. Both sides lost their wealth and property accumulated over generations when they fled. Even in terms of reasons for fleeing, the narratives of both Israel and Palestine are surprisingly similar: both claim that the other side fled voluntarily, and both claim that their refugees were forcibly expelled by the other side.

5 Let’s talk about the Palestinian land and refugee issues again

The biggest difference between the two sides lies in their attitudes towards their respective refugees. Israel has absorbed its own refugees in obscurity and made great efforts to integrate them into Israeli society, which was originally dominated by Western Jews. It has not reached out to ask for a penny from the international community, nor has it regarded the solution of its own refugee problem as the realization of peace. prerequisites. On the other hand, most Arab countries, with the exception of Jordan, lock up Palestinian refugees in refugee camps and strictly prohibit their integration with local society. They deliberately create and expand the Palestinian refugee problem and make the international community bear the burden of the refugees' lives. At the same time, the so-called right of return of Palestinian refugees has always been a major obstacle to peace between Israel and Palestine.

Large-scale population displacement due to the redrawing of borders between countries is nothing new, nor is it a problem unique to Israel and Palestine. Large-scale population replacements occurred between Greece and Turkey, and between Greece and Bulgaria before and after the independence of Greece. The same problem also occurred in India and Pakistan when India became independent. These countries subsequently signed relevant agreements, and no country required "return" or population resettlement. Anyone with a little bit of rationality will understand that the essence of this kind of refugee flight is not only to escape the war, but also to refuse to belong to the country where they live after the political map changes. Forcing these hostile populations back to their original places is actually creating new conflicts, while insisting on such negotiated terms is essentially a refusal to achieve peace. (The above is excerpted from Professor Zhang Ping’s article)

According to statistics in 1995, there are more than 1 million Arab citizens in Israel. They did not blindly believe the rumors of Jews cannibalizing and killing people and stayed. They can be retained. It has the cultural characteristics of the community, can participate in various political activities, and can purchase real estate (but there are unfounded rumors that Israel prohibits Arab citizens from purchasing land). Which party is engaging in "ethnic cleansing"? Israel has declared itself the homeland of the Jewish people and resettled all these refugees. Therefore, it can be said that: Israel has never had a refugee problem, which does not mean that Israel has never had refugees.

Let’s look at some of the Arab world’s practices towards Palestinian refugees who are also their own compatriots:

When the United Nations passed a resolution to provide humanitarian assistance to Palestinian refugees in 1948, the Arab countries refused to give a penny. ;

No Arab country except Jordan recognizes Palestinian refugees as citizens;

Since the fall of Saddam’s regime, thousands of them have been living in low-cost apartments provided by the Baghdad government. The Palestinian refugees living there were evicted by their landlords, and another 200 families received notices from their landlords, ordering them to move out immediately after their children go on summer vacation at the end of this month.

In Saudi Arabia, where 500,000 Palestinians live and are extremely rich due to oil, in a decree passed in October 2004, all people who have lived in Saudi Arabia for more than 10 years are allowed to apply for citizenship— —except the Palestinians.

The Arab League specifically put forward guiding principles to prevent Arab countries from granting citizenship to Palestinians in order to "avoid the loss of their identity and protect their return rights."

So, isn’t it crystal clear who is using Palestinian refugees to gain leverage at the negotiating table, and who is creating the suffering of Palestinian refugees as a means of defrauding donations internationally? Isn’t it clear who created the Palestinian refugees?

Professor Zhang Ping’s comment: The slight deficiency of this article is that the discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian land issue does not delve into the specific land system issues of the Ottoman Turkish era, that is, almost all land is state-owned, and only a small amount of land is sold by foreigners. Condition. The reform of the land system during the British Mandate was not successful. Israel’s land law still contains a lot of content from the Ottoman era. Even the name of the Land Bureau is directly in Turkish. Therefore, the claim that the Palestinians owned more than 90% of the land in Palestine in 1947 cannot be legally established at all.

People often say: There is no love for no reason in the world, and there is no hate for no reason. This is generally true, or in the world of mentally normal people. However, there is a special situation, such as in the world of madmen, hatred will arise for no reason. The vast majority of "kafirs" who account for four-fifths of the world's population have never provoked "them". People just work and live on their own land.

However, even so, the Kafirs have collectively been viciously cursed from some dark corners of the world, cursed to hell, cursed to be "animals lower than cows and horses", and sharpened their knives all the time. They are busy preparing to launch "holy war" and terrorist attacks against these Kafirs - is there any more absurd and boring hatred in the world than this?